037. [Text]

[explosivecombat]

I come seeking discussion again today, which to most of you should probably be nothing new; if anything, I ought to apologize for it, but I suspect that will ring about as true as my usual apologies for the subject matter. For what it's worth, the subject is better than it usually is; take that as you will.

I'd like to discuss dreams today; I'm sure those that were here about a year ago know exactly why, but in the end that is neither here nor there, and you don't have to have experienced it to discuss this with me.

I'm sure we're all no strangers to very vivid dreams...? The sort that immerse you so entirely that they almost seem real...surely there are a few qualities here and there that mark them as dreams, but they're disregarded in favor of whatever is actually happening right in front of you. Dreams like that can hardly be said to be different from reality, can they? They invoke feelings within you; they encourage you to continue thinking about them long after you've awakened. You could even say that dreams like that have given you experiences that you might never have had, were you awake – you've gone on adventures and met people and done things that affected you, all while physically being asleep.

Say that there was a way to live like that forever.

Suppose that there's a machine that will put you under, rendering you solidly asleep and allowing you to experience whatever you want. The machine can simulate any pleasurable experience that you choose, instilling all the thoughts and feelings that would come with actually going out and doing those things for yourself in your waking life. There would be no pain or suffering; it would be an experience in pure bliss for as long as you were plugged into the machine.

Again, you could stay that way forever, if you so chose, living out the rest of your life in dreams, and it would be a pleasant experience that's custom-tailored to you. The only tradeoff is that you would be unconscious the entire time; the experience would be entirely in your mind, rather than anything you actually did.

Would you choose to go under and live the rest of your life happy but effectively comatose, or would you prefer to experience life for yourself, entirely awake, with all the imperfections and strife that may come with it?

You can answer me anonymously if you wish, because as usual, your identity doesn't interest me as much as your response does; if you really want to impress me, you'll tell me why you would answer as you did.

Comments

[text]

[solas_ion]

Hell no.

[Lancer didn't bother with anonymity, but his answer came almost immediately after reading over the entire message.]

Dreams ain't supposed to last forever. You can want them to, sure--but it just isn't right. What's the point to life if you're not going to live it?

[text]

[explosivecombat]

And that's a perfectly valid way of looking at things. May I ask what gives you the impression that the opposing viewpoint isn't valid?

If the feelings in the dream are real, it would effectively be the same as living through those experiences, wouldn't it?

[Anon] [Text]

[grapeeater]

Not for me. For the people I care about, yes. I'll find a way to make the world as perfect as I can for them while they're under. I was raised and taught to help those who I can, to keep working for a better world... and I don't want those who I care for to be burdened with the painful world that exists now.

[text forever]

[explosivecombat]

[...ahahaha fucking wow

good sir or madam, that is a little messed up he will not deny]

Would you give them a choice in the matter, or would you just put them under, no questions asked?

[dead philosophers forever]

[doitrockapella]

Doing a survey to find the hedonists in the crowd, are we?

I'm curious how you'd answer this yourself, Nietzsche.

[explosivecombat]

I'm curious as to how you think I would answer.

[Text]

[wing_attack]

[Should he out himself? ... He's said enough weird stuff. And people seem to take things okay here. So he won't anon.]

I've been in something like that, except it switched between pleasure and pain. It was used as a torture device, like you might expect.

So no. I'd live life with everything it's got. I don't have much of a choice. Even if I went into a machine like that I'd be abandoning the things I had to do.

[explosivecombat]

Am I to assume that there are some responsibilities where you're from that can only be carried out by you alone?

[TEXT]

[glaciates]

Why would you ask something like this? Are there actually people out there who would agree to live in their dreams like that?

[explosivecombat]

It's not so much that people would, I think; the point is questioning why people wouldn't. It's considered an argument against hedonism, actually - if hedonism is valid, there would be no reason to not use the machine, because the pleasure would be all that would matter. A promise of pleasure with no suffering or drawbacks whatsoever should be what a hedonist would aspire to, and yet most people would refuse to use the machine, rendering hedonism invalid.

[...and it takes him a moment, but after a while of looking at it and hesitating a bit, he sends another one, because that...it didn't really answer the question, did it?]

...It's one of those philosophical things I like, Isaac, and I want to see how people think.

text

[cawsforalarm]

[Look who's learned how to use the keyboard function! Anonymous commenting is still beyond him, though, unfortunately.]

That sounds fun, but I wouldn't do it if there's no way to wake up. I mean, there's still stuff I need to take care of out here, and if I just conked out forever it would kind of leave my Pokémon in the cold, you know?

[explosivecombat]

So you're another one whose responsibilities keep them from truly considering, then?

Are these responsibilities unique to you - there's no one else to take them on?

[text;]

[ossifragant]

You ask this kind of question often.

Even if I was given all the world's pleasures through this machine, it wouldn't satisfy me. A dream is still a dream no matter how real it feels. In the end, I would have obtained absolutely nothing. A world without pain and suffering couldn't sustain itself in the long run, anyway. Eventually a person would stop being able to process all of the world's pleasures. If they ever forgot it, they would be reminded of what it actually is: a farce.

Pleasure cannot exist without pain just as joy cannot exist without misery. What you're describing is nothing less than a fancy prison of one's own creation. A person would get sick of it eventually and begin to violently reject the world they see around them.

If someone else wants to live in such a fantasy, they can do whatever they want. A shame I wouldn't get to watch the inevitable breakdown.

[explosivecombat]

I do, yes, simply because I like to see how people answer - and they always do answer, giving me something else to consider during my day. This world is incredibly dull to me a good amount of the time, and I appreciate the distraction; besides, humans just interest me, I like seeing how they think.

While you raise a valid point, I would argue that you haven't gained nothing via dreams like that, since for all intents and purposes you're still experiencing things. You gain the mental and emotional stimulation you would have received in the waking world, in other words. What is it about the situation that makes a difference, as far as you're concerned - what renders one more valid than the other?

[Text]

[cobraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

[Kimblee, you're making Cobra think, and he doesn't like this. Make it stop.]

An interesting question.

No, I would not choose to do such a thing. Knowing beforehand that the experiences wouldn't be real would make it a completely worthless idea to me.

[Though he can see some worth in putting other people in said machine and thus getting them out of his hair forever.]

[explosivecombat]

[...Cobra, you usually don't indulge him by answering these sorts of questions very often. Are you sick, or...]

May I ask why? For all intents and purposes, you would still be having the experience in several ways; what devalues it, in your opinion?

[text]

[fauxtographs]

Absolutely not, Mr Kimblee!

[...wait, was that supposed to be anonymous? Oh well, never mind!

...that first line probably would have given her away anyway so uh]

I mean, if it's all fake, then what's the point? Besides, I'd go mad if I wasn't able to exercise!

[explosivecombat]

[...WELL, SOMEBODY HAS A LOT OF FEELINGS, GOODNESS LORD.]

Ah, Miss Altava, good evening. A pleasure as always.

I'm curious as to why you seem to believe there's no point, however - mind indulging me?

[text]

[sincereheart]

well that sounds like it could be really fun!!!!!
but!!!! i wouldn't want to do it for too long you know!!!!!
i mean i'd love to be in a world that was just fun stuff forever but not if none of my friends could be there with me!!!!!!
plus i have a couple of worlds to help save!!!!!!
but a machine like that would be super fun to unwind with afterward!!!!!!!

[ Mimi you're kind of missing the point... ]

[explosivecombat]

[...oh lord he did not figure for the literal children

leto take the wheel]

A few worlds to help save, is it? How do you mean?

[anonymous text]

[tearsofademon]

You know, there was a time not that long ago when I would have chosen dreaming forever without a second thought. It'd be a lot safer that way, if nothing else.

Nowadays I'm not sure what my answer is.

[text forever]

[explosivecombat]

Is that so...? What changed, if I might ask?

[text]

[lieutenantantichrist]

[Did you want thought and consideration? Because you're getting something jabbed into the phone immediately.]

No, and fuck any coward who would.

[explosivecombat]

[...It takes all kinds...]

Care to elaborate any?

[text]

[evilfrenzy]

I find it interesting that you would ask that here, a world that has many qualities of a vivid dream itself. Whisked away from any worries or obligations you may have had back home, physical ailments mysteriously healed for the most part, obtaining pet monsters with magical abilities, all while time mysteriously stops until you return home...if what I have heard is to be believed regarding that last bit.

To answer your question though, not likely. There are certain things I would like to accomplish personally rather than have those accomplishments placed into my lap in a dream world, especially those that affect others. I would prefer the real, living person to be affected by my actions rather than a dream version of that person. It's just more satisfying that way.

[text]

[explosivecombat]

That's an interesting point, and not one I've heard today - the fact that giving up one's presence in the waking world would effectively surrender their chance to have an affect on that world. Most are more preoccupied with their personal experiences, rather than the experiences they can have with (or inflict on, as the case may be) other people.

As for this first part of what you've said - I've known some who have left this place and returned, and they've confirmed time stopping to the best of their ability. They said that it was as though nothing had changed when they arrived home, and they didn't remember anything that had happened here, either.

[islandshore]

No.

If I'm gonna be happy, I want to earn it. Going off into dreamland is flat-out lazy, not to mention cowardly. And even if it felt real, that doesn't change the fact that you'd be leaving behind the people who really matter.Fleeing the world just to live "perfection."

[explosivecombat]

You're the second person today to refer to using something like that as cowardice. May I ask what brings you to that conclusion?

Text;

[silentscales]

[It reminded Snake of a rather fascinating poem on the subject, so he types it out;]
"A Dream Within a Dream"
-by Edgar Allen Poe

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow —
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand —
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep — while I weep!
O God! Can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

[explosivecombat]

Ah, that's beautiful, actually; I have a friend who sends me poetry from time to time and I've discovered a fondness for Poe that way, but I hadn't read that one.

And rather on-point with the discussion, on top of it; well-played.