040. [Text/Action for Route 34]

[explosivecombat]

[TEXT]

As a former soldier, I've had to consider and handle the question of when it's considered acceptable to take another life. It's hardly a question here, since in this world life is incredibly well-protected and death is incredibly cheap; however, seeing as this place hasn't just dissolved into an anarchic killing spree, it seems that most of us still have a basic grasp on morality as we understand it and are of the basic consensus that "murder is bad."

I suppose my question then is where the line is, for most of the people here, and where the difference lies between murder and self-defense. There's the obvious understanding that if someone is trying to kill you, you likely won't just stand there and let them do it; you're probably going to defend yourself or even fight back, no matter how much of a pacifist you are.

But surely there are places where the criteria becomes a bit more difficult to discern...? Say that you have two people drowning in the ocean; there's a plank nearby that will support the weight of one of them. Without use of the plank, both people will surely die. Person A gets there first, but Person B shoves them off, saving themselves but causing Person A to drown in the process.

Was what Person B did murder? Probably. But they were also going to die if they didn't do it – isn't that just another form of self-defense?

What if Person A fought back and was able to hold their position? That's self-defense, in all probability – but they're also deliberately ensuring the death of another person. Is Person A a murderer for doing so?

Does it matter? Either way, a person is dead because someone else valued their own life more. A life is over and somehow I doubt whatever words the living use to make themselves feel better matter much to the deceased.

...I suppose now is when I apologize for the morbidity of the subject matter, although honestly it seems I can't let a year pass in which I don't ask some sort of horribly inappropriate question about murder. I suppose I'm just getting it out of the way early this year.



[ACTION]

[...And in contrast to that self-admitted horribly inappropriate question about murder, Kimblee actually is doing rather well today; if anything, he seems pleased that the weather has broken and it was above freezing for a few blessed moments today, since that means he can actually go outside and not spend most of his time shut in the base. It's large enough to keep him from getting too worked up, but it's still windowless and claustrophobic and if he can be outside, then dammit, he will be outside.

He's just outside Goldenrod today; he's up on Acasta.

It's been a while since he's done anything from up on top of the Steelix – travel is one thing, but battle is another entirely, and he's got some of his other high-leveled Pokémon out with him for the sake of satisfying that latter desire; Acasta's up against Carlisle right now, and from the look of it, it's not so much Kimblee's job to command as it is to not fall right the hell off. But his balance is good and his gaze is incredibly focused, and from the sound of it, he's having a grand time – he's laughing quite a bit, and it's cold and there's entirely too much ice around and he's done this before and it was a good time then, too.

He manages to jump down when a well-timed Earthquake finally takes Acasta out, ensuring that he's well clear of the steelsnake when it falls; apparently he's not having fun unless everyone stands a great chance of dying, and today isn't much of an exception. At least he'll be unoccupied with battle for a while as he spends a while seeking out a Revive that he has somewhere on his person; whether he's going back up later or just doesn't want to leave Acasta unconscious is a bit hard to say, but either way he's around for conversation.]

Comments

[ACTION]

[sadisticwarfare]

[It doesn't take Archer long to find Kimblee after that initial mass texting. He could have replied with one word (why) and gotten his point across just as easily, but instead he decided to seek Kimblee out, just to make sure he's not in some incredibly morbid mood or something.

...Needless to say, he's definitely not pleased when he finds Kimblee. At least he has the decency to wait until Kimblee jumps clear of the Steelix before getting started with the usual rant.]

What do you think you're doing!? What if you fell off!?

[...again...]

[explosivecombat]

Archer, there you are.

[...he says, as though he's been expecting this.

He doesn't look at Archer, instead focusing on locating that Revive; he has approximately a million pockets, hold on.]

If anything, this is ensuring that I won't fall off; I'd think that much is clear...?

[sadisticwarfare]

[You should expect him to show up when you're doing dangerous stunts like this!!]

How on earth is this ensuring you won't fall off? You're just going to heal the Steelix and do it again!

[text]

[samsa]

I think some might say that it really doesn't matter in the end. Like you said, someone dies no matter what each person decides to do...and if one of them didn't act, they would both die anyway. I don't know if I could call either person in that situation a murderer, either, because it sounds like there's absolutely no other option for them to take.

It's...really hard to say for sure.

[explosivecombat]

What would you call them, if you had to call them anything?

[Text]

[theotherother]

I think that falls under self preservation not self defense. I also think Person A or B or whichever one lives isn't going to care what you call it at the time, but might feel like shit about later.

[Speaking from experience here? No, not him. Never.]

Depending on the person anyway. Some people aren't going to care afterwards either.

[explosivecombat]

Of course - there always are the sociopaths in the audience to account for, aren't there?

"Self-preservation" is a fair answer, however, though it implies that any rational person would do the same. Do you believe that to be the case?

text; | private

[aufsassig]

See, now that's something I always think is kind of fascinating — listening to all the pretty things people tell themselves to somehow make it okay to do something they know is wrong.

"Someone died, but I'm not a murderer, I had good reason."

Like you said, I'm sure that makes the dead guy feel a lot better about things.

[explosivecombat]

The one that stays with me came from a fellow soldier back home. I overheard them insisting that they were the victims in that situation, because they were under orders that required them to kill more people than they considered acceptable.

video;

[throatwash]

Well... Murder is a word that defines killing as unlawful within certain legal parameters. The difference between murder and self defense, then, is criteria. So is the law based on collective morals, or are collective morals based on the law? It sounds pedantic, but because of the close association between the two, the argument is skewed to support self defense. Most people think unlawfulness is bad. Or in the case of murder, evil. Which classifies their will to survive as evil. That's difficult for many people to admit.

( what a punk. )

[text]

[explosivecombat]

What a charming argument that actually makes no valid point whatsoever.

Would you like to try again, or is that all you have?

[sorry, you were saying]

[text]

[evilfrenzy]

I'm curious to know why we're considering the deceased's feelings on the matter in this hypothetical situation. Is there a point to it? They're deceased.

[...That probably says a lot about him right off the bat.]

But it is as you said, there isn't much use sugarcoating it by calling it self-defense or any of that. I imagine no matter what the survivor claims, someone out there is going to regard them differently for their actions.

[explosivecombat]

The point to be made there is less about the literal feelings of the deceased and more about the fact that whatever word is thrown around, it's solely for the benefit of making the living party feel better about whatever made the deceased's opinion no longer matter.

[SPEAKING OF SAYING A LOT ABOUT PEOPLE.]

But that's exactly it - anything that particular course of action may be considered is entirely subjective anyway.

[text]

[crouching_sin]

The line between murder and self-defense is incredibly vague. From a legal standpoint, if you read laws, it looks more clear-cut, but in practice it almost never actually is. Even if someone seems to have a clear case for the former rather than the latter there's almost always someone willing to argue mitigating circumstances.

On your plank of Carneades question though, either person is technically a murderer, if you want to define murder as 'killing of another willfully'. Is it also self-defense? Almost definitely. The legal system would call it one or the other in order to assign a sentence, but ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone else says - it's something the survivor would carry with them for the rest of their life. The feelings of either the survivor or the deceased are ultimately inconsequential, because while the survivor might justify themselves they also know exactly what they did, and no amount of self-reassurance will change what's happened.

Humans live on the deaths of other things. Whether it's wood to build homes, animals to provide food, or other humans to provide whatever real or imagined resource that's gained from conflict, humans are creatures of self-preservation because humans are animals, and nature is an entire system of fighting to hold a position over some other form of life. Ultimately there's always some sort of life-form that's 'shoved off the plank' in order continue living.

[explosivecombat]

It's fascinating, how many people willfully ignore the purpose of questions like this in favor of assuming I can't read; your last paragraph is enough to make me tolerate you, however.

You choose to see it as purely a matter of survival, from the sound of it, yet the sentence before that - regarding "knowing exactly what they did" - indicates that you may believe it worthy of condemnation anyway. May I ask why?

[ACTION]

[glaciates]

[Well, Kimblee's text is certainly something to think about, but Isaac's not really sure he wants to get into a discussion about this. It hits a little too close to home and even though he's been here for a long time, thinking about everything that happened back home still makes Isaac feel uncomfortable. There are things he's come to accept and come to terms with, but his own actions are still something that bother him. He can't help but wonder how things would have turned out if he had made different choices, even though he knows there's no changing what's already happened.

He's not about to have a crisis today, don't worry. He simply puts the thought aside and eventually seeks out Kimblee, just to talk about something stupid and superficial.

What he finds is Kimblee jumping majestically from a Steelix and wow, look at his super awesome boyfriend!!]

I really should get one of those. I don't have anything that awesome to ride into battle.

[explosivecombat]

[...may Arceus bless you for your enthusiasm and also for thinking he's totally hot right now; the world needs more people like you.]

I can always breed you one, you know - they have a good set of moves that can be bred into them.

[THEY VIOLATE SO MANY PEACE TREATIES, ISAAC

SO MANY]

action;

[ossifragant]

[For once, Greed really didn't have much of a response to Kimbley's question. His answer would have been simple enough: it's murder either way. For whatever reason, it struck him as a little boring; he didn't think he had much of value to add so he chose not to, instead briefly skimming over other responses before quickly moving on with his day and heading outside.

When he catches sight of Kimblee jumping off of a fainting Steelix, he's suddenly very grateful he decided to go for a walk today. Greed barks a laugh at the sight before walking up to Kimblee like this is the most normal thing in the world to see.]

Having fun today?

[explosivecombat]

[Well, will you look who it is. Greed, you are exactly the person he wants to see when he's coming off of doing something stupid - absolutely no sarcasm involved.]

Quite a bit, actually; it's a good day for it.

[silentscales]

[Snake is out with his pokèmon for some more training. They trained out here nearly every day, but they stopped when Snake noticed Kimblee. He and his pokèmon, including an Onix named Quincey, move closer to watch the battle.

When the steelix falls, Quincey rushes over to Snake's surprise. He runs after the rocksnake who fortunately stops short of the battle area. She rumbles, calling out to the Steelix.

Snake sighs with the hint of a smile and translates for his pokèmon,] You can't faint! I was rooting for you! says Quincey.

[explosivecombat]

[Oh, goodness, that is a tremendous rocksnake of your own, isn't it.

Kimblee doesn't seem fazed by the audience, instead turning his focus toward seeking out a Revive that he has somewhere on his person; he's smiling a bit when he responds, however.]

I'm sure she'll appreciate the sentiment once I've awakened her; consider it appreciated.

[He's a bit breathless when he speaks, but the words are easy, at least.]

It's been a while since we've spoken last, hasn't it?

[text]

[ajustcaws]

man, that is a TOUGHIE!! though, i mean, people float, kinda, don't they...? couldn't the one guy help the other out?

even if they don't, though, i guess i can't blame either of them because it's just a crappy situation all over. people don't do to great in crappy situations!

[text]

[explosivecombat]

They tend to not do very well, no. Most tend to turn toward what will ensure their own survival first, rather than what might be the rational or logical thing to do; it's easier to say from here what we think they should do, or perhaps ideally what we would do in their circumstances, but we have no way to really know how we would react ourselves unless we were put in that situation ourselves.

text;

[majorcrotchgrab]

[Normally he doesn't care for these kind of "questionares" but the fact that Kimblee mentioned he's an ex soldier piques his interest.]

Whether it was self-defense or self-preservation, murder is murder. Sometimes there's no other choice. ... Unless you're a martyr and would prefer to sacrifice yourself. Which raises the question, if you did sacrifice yourself, would the survivor feel they were responsible for your death? Would they be a murderer?

[explosivecombat]

I think some people might believe that they were a murderer in that situation, or at the very least they would feel that they no longer deserve to live - that they were not only about to die, but rather that they were intended to by circumstance or fate or whatever they believe governs the world.

Personally, I would consider myself fortunate, but I'm a bad example if you want to know what a perfectly normal response would be.